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Author Topic: My next engine in the making  (Read 4432 times)
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« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2010, 01:24:58 AM »

I think I'll be heading out for the Toyota shop to get the missing valve lock tomorrow, in the meanwhile I put some finishing touches on the VICS upper chamber; I already had it in pretty much the right shape in October 2008, but I really wasn't quite happy with the finishing. Here's a quick recap:



edges are all eaten up and the lip around the long runner bellmouths aren't shaped at all; not the least how I visioned it.



Here's where I got by this afternoon. I welded the spots were I had accidentally cut the sealing edge and shaped the bellmouth edges from thick and square to thin and round. Next thing to do is perhaps go once through the parts by hand with a sanding paper and then have the flange planed.

I honestly don't know how much, if at all, this will help but I speculate it should give quite a lot of flow to top end. I really should have it compared on a dyno, good thing this bolts right on to stock VICS lower chamber.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 01:27:21 AM by STW » Logged
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« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2010, 11:17:47 PM »

Alright, I got the valve train assembled, here's a shot:



The camshafts aren't really assembled yet, I'm going to bolt the head on the block before torqueing cam bearings. I would've assembled the head and block today, but I had taken a shortcut and used an old G-clip from the old piston after I had lost one when it sprang loose from the piston (god knows where it flew, glad it wasn't my eye...) and when I was supposed to pick up the set of new C-clips to replace it, it was sent unintentionally back to the main store! Not a biggie, I'll pick it up tomorrow but still I wish I had received the clip today.

I had a chat with a fellow Mazda club member about the VICS hack. Apparently it does improve top end, but in his setup (NA) it sacrifices far too much on the middle range! I could work around the problem by messing with boost curves; however, that's not how I would have it. I've been very serious about improving engine volumetric efficiency and dialing the boost up to compensate losses in VE is not the way to go! I have to see how it works for me and if it's possible to correct, or if I've been wildly off the mark.
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« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2010, 10:43:58 AM »

:-) *claps* anticipation is building this side! Bad luck on the clips, reason for everything in the end.

The main point of that hack is to increase high end flow - at the cost of the bottom end. I doubt it's possible to save that loss but let's see when you're done and the numbers are in. You have to give and take somewhere, not a linear process at all.

I doubt you're going to feel the drop in efficiency low down. Holding thumbs
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« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2010, 03:08:58 PM »

:-) *claps* anticipation is building this side! Bad luck on the clips, reason for everything in the end.

The main point of that hack is to increase high end flow - at the cost of the bottom end. I doubt it's possible to save that loss but let's see when you're done and the numbers are in. You have to give and take somewhere, not a linear process at all.

I must disagree there, I left the long runners effectively intact, so while the the intake is configured for low to medium RPM configuration, the performance should not be affected, but now it seems it is... There is a possible explanation to it, however.
At first I thought the gap was too high between the low and high RPM and opening the VICS just a bit might help, but now it seems that wasn't it at all. First, he said the engine got pretty powerful after 4700 RPM and the VICS point was felt. However, he said he didn't use a vacuum reservoir at all, and the vacuum inside the intake at full throttle isn't at all great. It might be the butterflies were half open while at medium RPM. That would make sense; at low RPM the ail spilling through the short runners would ruin flow velocity, while at higher RPM it would not flow enough, and thus the VICS would still make a noticeable kick when set to high RPM. I'm still speculating though. Too bad the guy doesn't have the setup any more, I might've sent him my external vacuum reservoir.

I went to collect the new clips - only to hear they won't arrive until tuesday! I really had forgot the basic rule of obtaining parts; there's no part small or common enough not to cause a major hassle. I'm really getting the vibes of 2008 here, when every delivery time was measured in months.

It seems also I had misplaced the washer between the cam gear and bolt, went to the dealer to ask for a replacement, only to discover they'd charge 13;50eur for it! No deal. I'm just going to assemble the head this weekend and bolt it on the block next week.
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« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2010, 03:18:05 PM »

Right you may have a point right there  Shocked Let's see the outcome though, I am still not totally sure we're referring to the same modifications here. Let me re-read your posts and understand what you've done to the intake (if you posted what you've done here.)
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« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2010, 03:22:18 PM »

It seems also I had misplaced the washer between the cam gear and bolt, went to the dealer to ask for a replacement, only to discover they'd charge 13;50eur for it! No deal. I'm just going to assemble the head this weekend and bolt it on the block next week.

Which washer is this? I can't even recall how mine looks - I don't know why I'm thinking it's a one piece (bolt and washer together). Nothing else you can use even permanently - that's ZAR 126 here - damn expensive!
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« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2010, 07:04:08 PM »

It's the 3mm thick washer that's used on the cam gear... nothing too special, I'll get a body washer for that. Even the guy behind the desk was shocked by the price.

There's not much I've done on the VICS, I just opened up the top chamber and smoothed to bottom part. I'll thin the butterfly shaft at the port areas a bit; not so much the rod would get too weak, but enough to open up the air passage a bit. Roughly similar to the throttle butterfly shaft.

Okay, so I went to the store to get my promised C-clips... only to be told they wouldn't arrive until the next week. Aww f*ck it, I'll assemble the valve train here and now and install the whole package later. Everything looks so fast on unreality TV where stuff arrives within the same day... anyway, here goes. Nothing spectacular, just blogging the progress.



I bought the crane cams assembly lube while at the store. I like the moly grease, sticks better than oil and everything. I'm betting it's the same stuff ARP sells as special thread lube. And there's a ton of it! The box contained two bags, I used perhaps 1/3rd of the first one. Instructions tell to use the stuff "liberally", I wonder just how much is enough...



Applied the gray goo. It's not adviced to be used on journals, so I oiled them again instead.



The breakout journal cap needs silicone sealant to prevent oil leaks.


I used plain oil to lube the threads on the bolts. There probably would've been a set of suitable studs available from ARP, but I rather suspect their benefits here. Of course, high RPM, increased spring tension and increased lift does put more strain to the valve train, but failures here are still rather rare, Anyway, the instruction was to torque to 26 Nm in two or three steps, so I first torqued them to hand tightness, the 20 Nm and finally 26. The torque wrench didn't go below 20....

It's very advisable to torqueing to hand tightness is done in stages, as the cams do counter a bit of resistance from the HLA's and you don't want to force anything in place.Torquing started at the center cap and was finished spiraling outwards clockwise.



Finally, the oiled seal is put in place. It slides in pretty easily, no tools required.



....aand done. The CAS is in place to block contaminants from entering the internals; the valve cover is on and the head is in a plastic bag to keep dirt out, waiting for the next week.
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« Reply #107 on: June 16, 2010, 10:45:23 PM »

Progress!! This time not with a few months wait either Wink

I had been chasing the C-clips for a week, but finally after rummaging the incoming bin, they found them, I paid the 1,50e (you really don't save any money by reusing old clips but risk an awful lot)

While undoing the bolts in the rods, I dropped one of the washers, and decided to take a photo of a little thing with grave consequences if messed up:



There's a bevel in the washer, that's to clear the root bevel in the bolt. If the washer goes the wrong way, the washer will collide with the bevel and it won't tighten properly. Little stuff where you can go badly wrong... The piston reinstall went well. piston ring compressor is a great aid, just tap lightly on the piston dome with a wooden handle and it slides almost by itself in. I used standard bolts for the time being, as the bottom end brace is in indefinite future. I torqued the rod bolts to 45Nm (with moly) and main bolts to 75Nm. Under spec, because I had moly at hand and used that stuff. It really is much slicker than oil.

And finally...


the stage where I thought I'd be by May 2008... no such luck. Then again, by all intents and purposes that was entirely different engine back then. The Gaskets-to-go guy advised not to use sealants, so I didn't. It got just a light coat of oil. I put a tiny bead of permatex sealant on the control oil hole, since it has a rubber ring on the stock gasket too and it's a known leak spot.



I cleaned and fitted the studs, making sure each threads all the way in. According to ARP, thread locker on the block end thread is okay, as long as the tightening is done while the stuff sets, so I was in a bit of a rush after applying the locker. ARP moly lube went on on the fine threads (and nut flanges), it's great the the end with the nut is fine pitch thread, all the more reason to use them. Aligning the head with studs is a great deal more delicate job than with bolts. I must say working inside the DOHC head takes some nimble digits!

After a brief stint of panic over 14mm 12-point socket, it was found and I got to torque the head. The numbers I got from ARP are INSANE compared to OEM bolt ratings. Apples to apples, the OEM torque is 80-86Nm and ARP was 162! With moly lube the advised torque was 110Nm, however.

And so, years overdue...




The engine is back in one piece!

Well, not quite, there are still important stuff like the oil pump missing, rear crank seal and such, but the principal assembly is finally done! It cleared up the garage a *lot* too. Also there's the brace/girdle I'm going to do, besides stiffening the block it allows me to use the main studs too! Making the girdle tightening height 18mm I could use head bolts or head studs as mains, pretty crafty isn't it Smiley

I decided not to keep the cam gears visible, as fashionable and beautiful they are. This decision is simply because I want to keep the belt as free from contamination as possible. Oil mist as such is bad for the rubber in the plastic, but that's not all. The light oily surface is sure to pick up dust and other solid particles, creating an abrasive coating on the cam belt. I've seen a few shots ot totally worn out cam gears, and while bad material quality sure has to do with it, I'm quite sure the dust and oil have done their part too. The covers do a great job shielding the belt, when the engine I took off from the 626 hatch was literally covered in grime and dirt, the belt and wheels were pristine.

Things are very very slowly picking up with employment. There are still certain very expensive parts to buy (turbo and intercooler, fuel system) which I'm hoping to get to buy this year. this summer preferrably.
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« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2010, 10:39:54 AM »

Thank you for the updates! She sure is a thing of beauty back together again. I agree with you on the cam belt decision. The worst choice I made was exposing the assembly - everything wears down pretty quickly not to mention your point on oil contamination which kills rubber.

I remember when you started this thread - it's been a rocky road but it's been worth it to guys who appreciate the motors characteristics.

I am also shocked on the torque specifications versus OEM bolts (with or without the moly lol). Hell that is A LOT more than stock requirements.

One last thing, how easy can you get those CAS type dizzy's that side? I will need to get one later in the year and if I have trouble finding locally may need help from your side (if you can get).

Cheerio
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« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2010, 02:01:59 PM »

Well, I'll kep an eye out if I can't part with mine! I'm planning 36-1 but I don't want to give up it just yet.

Right... once I get the engine properly sealed, I'll focus on designing the external brackets and exhaust system. A cood CAD model should help a lot when building the thing.

Once I get the engine off the hanger, I'll put the transaxle on it. Reinforcing that thing will be quite task. Mazda did develop the G-box so it could take the near 300Nm from the turbodiesel in 2002, so I don't think it's impossible. Just a bit difficult.
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« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2010, 10:24:11 PM »

I've been assembling the block; The oil pump is installed, a new water pump should arrive soon, but an aligning pin on the flywheel end is holding the show, that thing needs to be ordered all the way from Japan! Takes a few weeks to arrive.

Once the engine is sealed, I'll put it on a wheeled dolly or cart, where I will finish with accessories. The next thing to go on the engine stand will be the 4WD transmission!

Good thing is my finances are getting better. I'm hoping to get the turbo within a month and get on with the exhaust build and the rest of the stuff to make it run!

It's been a long and rocky road, but finally the goal looms on the horizon Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2010, 09:36:29 PM »

Wait I need to go back and re-read a few posts - did you just mention 4wd transmission  Cool Hell it's been so long you've probably posted about this a few times. Glad things are looking up for you money wise, let the bucks roll in and get the rest of your goodies - I think you'll be done August / September this year ;-)

*hopeful*
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« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2010, 11:41:12 PM »

Hmm, perhaps I didn't mention it here Smiley I bought in late 2008 an AWD 626. The idea is to transplant the drive train and suspension to my GT hatch Smiley I should be able to have it properly registered and licensed, but it's tough... I've heard such a modification done ONCE on a road car, a good 13 years ago.

Another big obstacle will be how to make the transmission tough enough. It's not known for high power handling capacity, so it'll take a boatload of modifications to make it last Smiley One of the ingredients is a new gear set, which will set me back by a few thousand €'s. So cheap it won't be; also, all the machine work will also cost a good bit.
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2010, 08:08:56 AM »

So you are basically looking at a 4wd swap complete :-) in that case, no you did not mention it and this thread took a big leap forward on the excitement scale for me!

Much respect Karri! This is no easy feat.
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« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2010, 09:00:21 PM »

So you are basically looking at a 4wd swap complete :-) in that case, no you did not mention it and this thread took a big leap forward on the excitement scale for me!

Much respect Karri! This is no easy feat.


I never got to start a thread about it... well, I'll start the thread for the new chassis soonish Smiley

Bofer that, however, here's the update: I went shopping and bought this:



3" ports, a proper water/air 120x120x280mm core and decent construction, at 249 euros I think it was a good purchase. I still need to test it for leaks though. The cooling capacity should be enough.


Here's the shot of the core:


The water passages are much smaller than air passages, which is good.

There was many reasons to choose air-to-water setup, some more pressing than other. Firstly, I want to move the actual radiator in front of the radiator frame, so there would be very little space for the air/air unit. I also didn't want to block the radiator with the air cooler, and I don't need to run the plumbing through the frame. The intake temperature can also be better controlled (a big deal in the winter), the cooler has less pressure drop and the plumbing is simpler (though the overall complexity is higher).

The engine itself is slowly coming together, here's the situation today (29th of June):



I still need to finish the intake and start working on the exhaust manifold and brackets, but now the internals are no longer exposed. Somewhat of a milestone.
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« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2010, 02:47:55 PM »

STW, how much did shipping set you back from Autotech on those valve springs? I'm compiling a final list of my own valvetrain goodies. What is your opinion on keeping the inners OEM for anything above 9000rpm?

Cheers.
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« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2010, 09:56:30 PM »

the VR6 outers are pretty damn stiff and solid, so probably it'll work. The inners are there mostly to detune any harmonics that could cause resonance. 
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« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2011, 12:41:12 PM »

You don't have a spare out do you?  Grin

I'm looking for inner and outer diameter for the 10.109.623 valve springs. Autotech aren't big on publishing their specifications.
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« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2011, 09:55:03 AM »

No spare spring, I'm afraid Smiley

I didn't measure mine, they were quite a bit thicker than stock and didn't seat well until shaved a bit off the bottom edge.

Ferrea had dimensions for various valve springs but I can't seem to find it anymore. It should give a good insight on the spring size.

It seems Autotech increased the spring rate by using less turns on the spring and used stock wire and coil diameter.
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« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2011, 10:13:39 AM »

Here's the thing, I wanted to use either Ferrea or Supertech, but each of these vendors are not clear on product codes for oversize vs oem sized items for this specific model of vehicle. I didn't want to order in the wrong set for one of my builds Smiley

I guess an even better place to start is info on the oem VR6 springs and work from there, there is nothing stopping me from using another spring from another brand / make of vehicle if dimensions match (which is the idea behind the question).

If you come across this info, please PM or post up for me. In the meantime I'll continue the search.
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